Here is a transcript of a recent conversation I had on ISCABBS in the Bible & Christianity forum about the emerging church and the post-modern mindset.
A couple things stood out for me about the conversation. One, it amazed me that so many people in the Bible & Christianity forum tested as Emergent/Postmodern in their religious outlook. Two, that many of the ISCABBS users in Bible & Christianity have something in common with emerging church types, especially the view that "[n]o one knows the whole truth about God, and we have much to learn from each other, and so learning takes place in dialogue. . . People are interested in spirituality and want to ask questions, so the church should help them to do this."
In fact, spending time conversing on ISCABBS about spiritual issues seems like a downright "emergent" type thing to do! :-)
So, if you're an "emergent" type (or any other type for that matter) who would like to listen in on our conversation, I warmly invite you to subscribe to our RSS feed or our Atom feed. You'll get 24x7 access to conversation like the transcript below.
If what you see stirs you, I heartily invite you to join ISCABBS. We'd love to hear from you!
--
Jun 8, 2005 14:26 from Hooligan
http://quizfarm.com/test.php?q_id=43870
Beat the quiz! Get it to select a Christian denomination for you of which you're not a member!
(You scored as Roman Catholic. You are Roman Catholic. Church tradition and ecclesial authority are hugely important, and the most important part of worship for you is mass. As the Mother of God, Mary is important in your theology, and as the communion of saints includes the living and the dead, you can also ask the saints to intercede for you...)
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Jun 8, 2005 15:49 from Tomte
Hmmm...very interesting results for me from http://quizfarm.com/test.php?q_id=43870
While I think the results were spot on regarding my postmodern and experiential bent, I don't know where it's getting the notion that I don't like older forms of church, especially since I specifically answered those questions saying that I *did* like those older forms.
The quiz just couldn't understand that certain types of liturgy can evoke spiritual experiences for me, as well as convey theological meaning in a non-rational sort of way.
You scored as Emergent/Postmodern.
You are Emergent/Postmodern in your theology. You feel alienated from older forms of church, you don't think they connect to modern culture very well. No one knows the whole truth about God, and we have much to learn from each other, and so learning takes place in dialogue. Evangelism should take place in relationships rather than through crusades and altar-calls. People are interested in spirituality and want to ask questions, so the church should help them to do this.
Emergent/Postmodern 79%
Classical Liberal 71%
Roman Catholic 68%
Evangelical Holiness/Wesleyan 64%
Neo orthodox 61%
Modern Liberal 54%
Charismatic/Pentecostal 32%
Reformed Evangelical 25%
Fundamentalist 11%
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Jun 8, 2005 15:50 from Giraffe
Yeah, I came out Emergent/Postmodern also. For those playing along at home:
Emergent/Postmodern 64%
Evangelical Holiness/Wesleyan 61%
Classical Liberal 61%
Modern Liberal 54%
Roman Catholic 46%
Neo orthodox 46%
Charismatic/Pentecostal 36%
Reformed Evangelical 18%
Fundamentalist 14%
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Jun 8, 2005 16:10 from Faunus
Emergent/Postmodern 68%
Roman Catholic 68%
Evangelical Holiness/Wesleyan 64%
Classical Liberal 61%
Modern Liberal 61%
Neo Orthodox 50%
Charismatic/Pentecostal 25%
Reformed Evangelical 11%
Fundamentalist 0%
Huh. What the hell is Emergent/Postmodern all about?
I ain't no Papist.
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Jun 8, 2005 16:12 from JLHL
Emergent/Postmodern 89%
Classical Liberal 64%
Modern Liberal 64%
Evangelical Holiness/Wesleyan 57%
Roman Catholic 54%
Charismatic/Pentecostal 54%
Neo orthodox 50%
Reformed Evangelical 14%
Fundamentalist 7%
I'm curious where "Quaker" fits on this list.
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Jun 8, 2005 16:16 from Musik
Classical Liberal 75%
Roman Catholic 75%
Modern Liberal 68%
Emergent/Postmodern 64%
Evangelical Holiness/Wesleyan 50%
Neo orthodox 39%
Charismatic/Pentecostal 14%
Reformed Evangelical 7%
Fundamentalist 0%
Not particularly surprising. As always, I'd love to know their algorithm.
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Jun 8, 2005 16:19 from Vanity
I tried taking that quiz: You scored as Modern Liberal. You are a Modern Liberal. Science and historical study have shown so much of the Bible to be unreliable and that conservative faith has made Jesus out to be a much bigger deal than he actually was. Discipleship involves continuing to preach and practice Jesus' measure of love and acceptance, and dogma is not important in today's world. You are influenced by thinkers like Bultmann and Bishop Spong. [Not!]
Modern Liberal 86%
Emergent/Postmodern 79%
Classical Liberal 75%
Roman Catholic 39%
Neo orthodox 21%
Evangelical Holiness/Wesleyan 14%
Reformed Evangelical 11%
Charismatic/Pentecostalist 7%
Fundamentalist 0%
This is for someone who accepts none or almost none of the distinctive Christian doctrines. I have never read Bultmann and only the smallest amounts of Spong (whom I don't find very interesting). I suppose this result is fuel for the fire of those fundamentalists who claim that liberal Christians are not really Christians, or at least are closer to non-Christians than to fundamentalist Christians. But really I think it comes out of the binary structure of the test.
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Jun 8, 2005 16:24 from Hooligan
I played around with a couple of other "religion quizzes" and thought about things and have this evaluation of the test and its merits and demerits here:
http://www.soc-ssbj.org/wordpress/index.php?p=195
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Jun 8, 2005 16:21 from Giraffe
I answered a lot of my questions in the "neutral" position because I thought that the questions were based on assumptions that merited discussion as opposed to a numeral. I think the high rating for "Evangelical Holiness" comes about because Quakers and Holiness churches are both very keen on the movement of the Holy Spirit, though with very different effect.
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Jun 8, 2005 16:30 from Hooligan
I might have to emend my blog post, as it seems the means of discrimination are not always effective for other people in this forum.
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Jun 8, 2005 16:33 from Giraffe
Vanity: I don't think "not a Christian" was a possible outcome.
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Jun 8, 2005 16:34 from Hooligan
If it were, I suspect I would not have been correctly identified as theologically Catholic.
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Jun 8, 2005 21:14 from Drummeractorcomic
since we're sharing scores, and nobody has posted this result yet:
You scored as Evangelical Holiness/Wesleyan.
You are an evangelical in the Wesleyan tradition. You believe that God's grace enables you to choose to believe in him, even though you yourself are totally depraved. The gift of the Holy Spirit gives you assurance of your salvation, and he also enables you to live the life of obedience to which God has called us. You are influenced heavly by John Wesley and the Methodists.
Evangelical Holiness/Wesleyan 93%
Neo orthodox 71%
Emergent/Postmodern 64%
Classical Liberal 57%
Charismatic/Pentecostal 54%
Roman Catholic 39%
Fundamentalist 39%
Modern Liberal 39%
Reformed Evangelical 29%
interesting, as I anwered them I found I was more conservative than I thought.
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Jun 8, 2005 21:17 from Egregious
What's Wesleyan? Besides a school?
Roman Catholic 82%
Evangelical Holiness/Wesleyan 68%
Modern Liberal 64%
Neo orthodox 54%
Classical Liberal 54%
Reformed Evangelical 54%
Emergent/Postmodern 46%
Charismatic/Pentecostal 39%
Fundamentalist 29%
I started skimming questions about halfway though, especially those I didn't understand.
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Jun 8, 2005 21:21 from Egregious
nevermind my first question, drummeractor answered it.l :)
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Jun 8, 2005 21:45 from PsychoSy
Emergent/Postmodern 75%
Evangelical Holiness/Wesleyan 64%
Reformed Evangelical 54%
Neo orthodox 50%
Charismatic/Pentecostal 46%
Fundamentalist 43%
Classical Liberal 39%
Modern Liberal 36%
Roman Catholic 18%
I think Emergent/Postmodern means old-school nascent Christianity.
You know ... of the Thomas Jefferson school of thought. :)
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Jun 8, 2005 22:02 from DesCartes
I think that quiz is a promoting tool for the Emergent/Postmodern branch of Christianity.
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Jun 8, 2005 22:20 from Hooligan
The emergent church is a pretty fascinating movement with a considerable literature, some of which is probably available online. House churches and networks of affiliation and Gen Xers and such. Perhaps someone who knows more about it than I do to could explain it to the forum.
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Jun 8, 2005 22:28 from Hooligan
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Emerging_Church
There's a notice that the accuracy of this article has been disputed and that it needs to be rewritten, but this squares with what I've heard about the movement in general.
Introduction
The Emerging Church developed in the late 20th Century into the 21st Century as a conversation in Western Europe, North America, and the South Pacific concerned with the deconstruction and reconstruction of protestant Christianity. Its development stemmed from a mix of a lack of growth in protestant churches, particularly amongst generation x; concern over how the Church would adopt to postmodernity; opposition to fundamentalist doctrines and practices in the modern church; a neglect of ancient Christian tradition and practices; the need for an ecumenical, catholic Church; increasing suspicion of the missiology of the market-driven, mega-church, and institutionalized Christianity. By 2005, the Emerging Church was also occurring to some extent in Asia, Africa, and South America. Some ecclesial scholars and thinkers affirm the conversation has become a movement.[1] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Emerging_Church#endnote_introfoot) [edit]
Background [edit]
The Influence and Suspicion of Postmodernism
Western Christianity was influenced significantly over the last few centuries by Modernism in the sense that it sought to take the individual narratives of the Bible and from them extract a set of underlying truths or meta-narratives. Using methods borrowed from scientific reductionism it was hoped that a grand truth and worldview would be attained. In practice, the modernist approach led to additional schism within the Church.
Some church leaders, responding to postmodernism, in turn, encouraged followers to deconstruct each element of their faith experience, and reassemble the pieces in light of his or her own unique journey through this deconstruction process. [edit]
Distinguishing Characteristics and Differences
While there is no single coordinated organization behind the emerging church globally, many church leaders and thinkers have written books, articles and/or blogs on the subject. Emerging Church groups typically contain some or all of the following elements:
* Highly creative approaches to worship and spiritual reflection, as compared to many American churches in recent years. This can involve everything from the use of contemporary music and films through to liturgy or other more ancient customs.
* A minimalist and decentralized organizational structure.
* A flexible approach to theology whereby individual differences in belief and morality are accepted within reason.
* A holistic view of the role of the church in society. This can mean anything from greater emphasis on fellowship in the structure of the group to a higher degree of emphasis on social action, community building or Christian outreach.
* A desire to reanalyze the Bible against the context with the goal of revealing a multiplicity of valid perspectives rather than a single valid interpretation
* A continual re-examination of theology.
* A high value placed on creating communities built out of the creativity of those who are a part of each local body.
In common with the House church movement, the Emerging Church is challenging traditional notions of how the Church should be organized. [edit]
Theological Developments [edit]
Ecclesiology
Because of the decentralized nature of the Emerging Church, as with many areas of doctrine, there is not a mutually agreed upon doctrine of ecclesiology -- a theology of the church, its role, nature, origin, and leadership. The emerging church claims its role to be continuing the mission of Christ, but there does not appear to be a unified stance on what role the church as a body plays in that mission.
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Jun 9, 2005 08:47 from Giraffe
Let's see. Decentralized. Minimalist structure. Continual re-examination of theology. A high value placed on creating community. Flexible approach to theology. Creative approaches to worship and spiritual reflection. Sounds like Quakerism to me - only it "emerged" about 300 years ago. :)
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Jun 9, 2005 10:21 from Vanity
Also check out www.emergingchurch.info
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Jun 9, 2005 10:43 from Tomte
I've done a tad of reading on the web since taking the quiz yesterday, and it seems like the emerging church conversation is coming from within evangelicalism.
Anyone know of anyone in mainline Christianity talking like this? In Marcus Borg's latest book he seems to be trying to place his views within the emerging church paradigm, but for the most part this seems to be a conversation within evangelicalism.
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Jun 9, 2005 11:04 from Drummeractorcomic
Giraffe, from your desciption, it saound almost like "We want lots of people, we will change what we say we believe as we need to in order to bring in more people. Right now, we believe what most liberals want."
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Jun 9, 2005 11:08 from Faunus
What do you mean by "liberals" in that context, Drummeractorcomic?
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Jun 9, 2005 11:07 from Giraffe
Sorry, not following your train of thought there, Drummer. Who is changing their beliefs to bring in more people?
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Jun 9, 2005 11:09 from PsychoSy
From *your* description, DAC, it sounds like the polar opposite of Roman Catholicism. ;)
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Jun 9, 2005 11:14 from Drummeractorcomic
I should have put "liberals" in quotes, and yes i meant it as the exact opposite of highly structured, heirarchal, dogmatic religions. Seems like they are trying get all the people who are rebelling against the "conservatives" that we were all complaining about in here a couple days ago. almost "we aren't going to tell you what to believe, we 'reexamine' our beliefs to fit oublic opinion. We focus more on building a community of believers and meeting their desire."
note that I am not saying this is neccessarily a BAD thing...
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Jun 9, 2005 11:20 from Vanity
Where does this "oublic opinion" come from? What oublic, and who measures its opinion (assuming that it has only one)?
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Jun 9, 2005 11:22 from Faunus
I believe Dr. Seuss wrote about it, though he spelled it "Oobleck."
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Jun 9, 2005 11:23 from Giraffe
Public opinion supports the "war on terror," the "war on drugs" and thinks that gay marriage is ickey. So, which "liberal" churches are honing their theology to fit public opinion?
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Jun 9, 2005 13:56 from Pluck Duck
Well southern baptists, of course!
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Jun 9, 2005 13:59 from Giraffe
Oh, *those* liberal churches!
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Jun 9, 2005 14:03 from Pluck Duck
You scored as Emergent/Postmodern. You are Emergent/Postmodern in your theology. You feel alienated from older forms of church, you don't think they connect to modern culture very well. No one knows the whole truth about God, and we have much to learn from each other, and so learning takes place in dialogue. Evangelism should take place in relationships rather than through crusades and altar-calls. People are interested in spirituality and want to ask questions, so the church should help them to do this.
Emergent/Postmodern 79%
Evangelical Holiness/Wesleyan 71%
Neo orthodox 68%
Classical Liberal 64%
Reformed Evangelical 64%
Charismatic/Pentecostal 57%
Fundamentalist 50%
Modern Liberal 29%
Roman Catholic 21%
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Jun 9, 2005 14:05 from Pluck Duck
Whats even funnier about that is that I always suspected Tomte and I were close in our views...but oy!
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Jun 9, 2005 15:34 from Hooligan
Tomte:
I know there is a vigorous discussion of the emerging church movement at Seabury Western and Church Divinity School of the Pacific, both liberal ECUSA seminaries. I don't know whether it's just a fad interest or whether it's actually going somewhere. (The only time it was mentioned at Nashotah House was privately, to me, by sympathetic instructors who thought it was my implicit church model and that I should learn from it -- otherwise it was thought to be insufficiently authority-driven to be a viable ecclesiology for Anglicans :)
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Jun 9, 2005 15:49 from Hooligan
Does anyone here actually have experience with an emerging church or a house church or something of that nature? It doesn't seem to be all that common in my part of the country. I'd like to hear more.
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Jun 9, 2005 16:41 from Gespalder
Since you are all sharing
You scored as Evangelical Holiness/Wesleyan.
You are an evangelical in the Wesleyan tradition. You believe that God's grace enables you to choose to believe in him, even though you yourself are totally depraved. The gift of the Holy Spirit gives you assurance of your salvation, and he also enables you to live the life of obedience to which God has called us. You are influenced heavly by John Wesley and the Methodists.
Evangelical Holiness/Wesleyan 71%
Emergent/Postmodern 61%
Neo orthodox 57%
Classical Liberal 54%
Roman Catholic 54%
Modern Liberal 50%
Charismatic/Pentecostal 46%
Reformed Evangelical 39%
Fundamentalist 25%
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Jun 10, 2005 08:32 from Moab
I had to try. Did anyone else score "classical liberal high?"
You scored as Classical Liberal.
You are a classical liberal. You are sceptical about much of the historicity of the Bible, and the most important thing Jesus has done is to set us a good moral example that we are to follow. Doctrines like the trinity and the incarnation are speculative and not really important, and in the face of science and philosophy the surest way we can be certain about God is by our inner awareness of him. Discipleship is expressed by good moral behaviour, but inward religious feeling is most important.
Classical Liberal 79%
Modern Liberal 68%
Emergent/Postmodern 54%
Roman Catholic 54%
Charismatic/Pentecostal 50%
Neo orthodox 46%
Evangelical Holiness/Wesleyan 43%
Reformed Evangelical 14%
Fundamentalist 0%
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Jun 10, 2005 08:31 from Tomte
I don't have any direct experience with emerging churches, but when I think emerging church, I usually think Brian MacClaren (sp?).
http://www.jenlemen.com is a blog written by a parishoner in McClaren's megachurch. She talks about emergent Christianity a lot, seems to get a lot of comments from other emergent blogs.
It seems like a lot of people on here with rather diverging views ended up scoring as postmodern/emerging on the quiz. This makes me think that, like DesCartes said, the quiz is a promotional tool, or else that like the charismatic movement was in the 70s, its an outlook that can exist in many different denominations.
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Jun 10, 2005 08:37 from Festus Mahoney
Brian spells his name McLaren. I've read some of his stuff and have heard a very few of his talks. He's probably best known for the books "A New Kind of Christian" and, more recently, "A Generous Orthodoxy"; I've not read those, but found "More Ready than You Realize" and "Reinventing Your Church" thought-provoking and occasionally compelling.
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Jun 10, 2005 08:39 from Tomte
Moab> thanks for posting, I was wondering what the difference was between "modern liberal" and "classical liberal." One of the drawbacks of the quiz is that there seems to be no way to get a list of all the different types descriptions.
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Jun 10, 2005 09:50 from Band Girl
Two brief things related to the emerging church discussion...
1. Brian McLaren seems to be the latest author my supervisor and other pastors are really into recommending...primarily for A Generous Orthodoxy. (This is in a mainline church...)
2. When I think emerging church in terms of an actual congregation, I think of the community at www.apostleschurch.org as an example.
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A couple things stood out for me about the conversation. One, it amazed me that so many people in the Bible & Christianity forum tested as Emergent/Postmodern in their religious outlook. Two, that many of the ISCABBS users in Bible & Christianity have something in common with emerging church types, especially the view that "[n]o one knows the whole truth about God, and we have much to learn from each other, and so learning takes place in dialogue. . . People are interested in spirituality and want to ask questions, so the church should help them to do this."
In fact, spending time conversing on ISCABBS about spiritual issues seems like a downright "emergent" type thing to do! :-)
So, if you're an "emergent" type (or any other type for that matter) who would like to listen in on our conversation, I warmly invite you to subscribe to our RSS feed or our Atom feed. You'll get 24x7 access to conversation like the transcript below.
If what you see stirs you, I heartily invite you to join ISCABBS. We'd love to hear from you!
--
Jun 8, 2005 14:26 from Hooligan
http://quizfarm.com/test.php?q_id=43870
Beat the quiz! Get it to select a Christian denomination for you of which you're not a member!
(You scored as Roman Catholic. You are Roman Catholic. Church tradition and ecclesial authority are hugely important, and the most important part of worship for you is mass. As the Mother of God, Mary is important in your theology, and as the communion of saints includes the living and the dead, you can also ask the saints to intercede for you...)
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Jun 8, 2005 15:49 from Tomte
Hmmm...very interesting results for me from http://quizfarm.com/test.php?q_id=43870
While I think the results were spot on regarding my postmodern and experiential bent, I don't know where it's getting the notion that I don't like older forms of church, especially since I specifically answered those questions saying that I *did* like those older forms.
The quiz just couldn't understand that certain types of liturgy can evoke spiritual experiences for me, as well as convey theological meaning in a non-rational sort of way.
You scored as Emergent/Postmodern.
You are Emergent/Postmodern in your theology. You feel alienated from older forms of church, you don't think they connect to modern culture very well. No one knows the whole truth about God, and we have much to learn from each other, and so learning takes place in dialogue. Evangelism should take place in relationships rather than through crusades and altar-calls. People are interested in spirituality and want to ask questions, so the church should help them to do this.
Emergent/Postmodern 79%
Classical Liberal 71%
Roman Catholic 68%
Evangelical Holiness/Wesleyan 64%
Neo orthodox 61%
Modern Liberal 54%
Charismatic/Pentecostal 32%
Reformed Evangelical 25%
Fundamentalist 11%
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Jun 8, 2005 15:50 from Giraffe
Yeah, I came out Emergent/Postmodern also. For those playing along at home:
Emergent/Postmodern 64%
Evangelical Holiness/Wesleyan 61%
Classical Liberal 61%
Modern Liberal 54%
Roman Catholic 46%
Neo orthodox 46%
Charismatic/Pentecostal 36%
Reformed Evangelical 18%
Fundamentalist 14%
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Jun 8, 2005 16:10 from Faunus
Emergent/Postmodern 68%
Roman Catholic 68%
Evangelical Holiness/Wesleyan 64%
Classical Liberal 61%
Modern Liberal 61%
Neo Orthodox 50%
Charismatic/Pentecostal 25%
Reformed Evangelical 11%
Fundamentalist 0%
Huh. What the hell is Emergent/Postmodern all about?
I ain't no Papist.
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Jun 8, 2005 16:12 from JLHL
Emergent/Postmodern 89%
Classical Liberal 64%
Modern Liberal 64%
Evangelical Holiness/Wesleyan 57%
Roman Catholic 54%
Charismatic/Pentecostal 54%
Neo orthodox 50%
Reformed Evangelical 14%
Fundamentalist 7%
I'm curious where "Quaker" fits on this list.
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Jun 8, 2005 16:16 from Musik
Classical Liberal 75%
Roman Catholic 75%
Modern Liberal 68%
Emergent/Postmodern 64%
Evangelical Holiness/Wesleyan 50%
Neo orthodox 39%
Charismatic/Pentecostal 14%
Reformed Evangelical 7%
Fundamentalist 0%
Not particularly surprising. As always, I'd love to know their algorithm.
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Jun 8, 2005 16:19 from Vanity
I tried taking that quiz: You scored as Modern Liberal. You are a Modern Liberal. Science and historical study have shown so much of the Bible to be unreliable and that conservative faith has made Jesus out to be a much bigger deal than he actually was. Discipleship involves continuing to preach and practice Jesus' measure of love and acceptance, and dogma is not important in today's world. You are influenced by thinkers like Bultmann and Bishop Spong. [Not!]
Modern Liberal 86%
Emergent/Postmodern 79%
Classical Liberal 75%
Roman Catholic 39%
Neo orthodox 21%
Evangelical Holiness/Wesleyan 14%
Reformed Evangelical 11%
Charismatic/Pentecostalist 7%
Fundamentalist 0%
This is for someone who accepts none or almost none of the distinctive Christian doctrines. I have never read Bultmann and only the smallest amounts of Spong (whom I don't find very interesting). I suppose this result is fuel for the fire of those fundamentalists who claim that liberal Christians are not really Christians, or at least are closer to non-Christians than to fundamentalist Christians. But really I think it comes out of the binary structure of the test.
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Jun 8, 2005 16:24 from Hooligan
I played around with a couple of other "religion quizzes" and thought about things and have this evaluation of the test and its merits and demerits here:
http://www.soc-ssbj.org/wordpress/index.php?p=195
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Jun 8, 2005 16:21 from Giraffe
I answered a lot of my questions in the "neutral" position because I thought that the questions were based on assumptions that merited discussion as opposed to a numeral. I think the high rating for "Evangelical Holiness" comes about because Quakers and Holiness churches are both very keen on the movement of the Holy Spirit, though with very different effect.
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Jun 8, 2005 16:30 from Hooligan
I might have to emend my blog post, as it seems the means of discrimination are not always effective for other people in this forum.
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Jun 8, 2005 16:33 from Giraffe
Vanity: I don't think "not a Christian" was a possible outcome.
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Jun 8, 2005 16:34 from Hooligan
If it were, I suspect I would not have been correctly identified as theologically Catholic.
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Jun 8, 2005 21:14 from Drummeractorcomic
since we're sharing scores, and nobody has posted this result yet:
You scored as Evangelical Holiness/Wesleyan.
You are an evangelical in the Wesleyan tradition. You believe that God's grace enables you to choose to believe in him, even though you yourself are totally depraved. The gift of the Holy Spirit gives you assurance of your salvation, and he also enables you to live the life of obedience to which God has called us. You are influenced heavly by John Wesley and the Methodists.
Evangelical Holiness/Wesleyan 93%
Neo orthodox 71%
Emergent/Postmodern 64%
Classical Liberal 57%
Charismatic/Pentecostal 54%
Roman Catholic 39%
Fundamentalist 39%
Modern Liberal 39%
Reformed Evangelical 29%
interesting, as I anwered them I found I was more conservative than I thought.
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Jun 8, 2005 21:17 from Egregious
What's Wesleyan? Besides a school?
Roman Catholic 82%
Evangelical Holiness/Wesleyan 68%
Modern Liberal 64%
Neo orthodox 54%
Classical Liberal 54%
Reformed Evangelical 54%
Emergent/Postmodern 46%
Charismatic/Pentecostal 39%
Fundamentalist 29%
I started skimming questions about halfway though, especially those I didn't understand.
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Jun 8, 2005 21:21 from Egregious
nevermind my first question, drummeractor answered it.l :)
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Jun 8, 2005 21:45 from PsychoSy
Emergent/Postmodern 75%
Evangelical Holiness/Wesleyan 64%
Reformed Evangelical 54%
Neo orthodox 50%
Charismatic/Pentecostal 46%
Fundamentalist 43%
Classical Liberal 39%
Modern Liberal 36%
Roman Catholic 18%
I think Emergent/Postmodern means old-school nascent Christianity.
You know ... of the Thomas Jefferson school of thought. :)
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Jun 8, 2005 22:02 from DesCartes
I think that quiz is a promoting tool for the Emergent/Postmodern branch of Christianity.
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Jun 8, 2005 22:20 from Hooligan
The emergent church is a pretty fascinating movement with a considerable literature, some of which is probably available online. House churches and networks of affiliation and Gen Xers and such. Perhaps someone who knows more about it than I do to could explain it to the forum.
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Jun 8, 2005 22:28 from Hooligan
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Emerging_Church
There's a notice that the accuracy of this article has been disputed and that it needs to be rewritten, but this squares with what I've heard about the movement in general.
Introduction
The Emerging Church developed in the late 20th Century into the 21st Century as a conversation in Western Europe, North America, and the South Pacific concerned with the deconstruction and reconstruction of protestant Christianity. Its development stemmed from a mix of a lack of growth in protestant churches, particularly amongst generation x; concern over how the Church would adopt to postmodernity; opposition to fundamentalist doctrines and practices in the modern church; a neglect of ancient Christian tradition and practices; the need for an ecumenical, catholic Church; increasing suspicion of the missiology of the market-driven, mega-church, and institutionalized Christianity. By 2005, the Emerging Church was also occurring to some extent in Asia, Africa, and South America. Some ecclesial scholars and thinkers affirm the conversation has become a movement.[1] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Emerging_Church#endnote_introfoot) [edit]
Background [edit]
The Influence and Suspicion of Postmodernism
Western Christianity was influenced significantly over the last few centuries by Modernism in the sense that it sought to take the individual narratives of the Bible and from them extract a set of underlying truths or meta-narratives. Using methods borrowed from scientific reductionism it was hoped that a grand truth and worldview would be attained. In practice, the modernist approach led to additional schism within the Church.
Some church leaders, responding to postmodernism, in turn, encouraged followers to deconstruct each element of their faith experience, and reassemble the pieces in light of his or her own unique journey through this deconstruction process. [edit]
Distinguishing Characteristics and Differences
While there is no single coordinated organization behind the emerging church globally, many church leaders and thinkers have written books, articles and/or blogs on the subject. Emerging Church groups typically contain some or all of the following elements:
* Highly creative approaches to worship and spiritual reflection, as compared to many American churches in recent years. This can involve everything from the use of contemporary music and films through to liturgy or other more ancient customs.
* A minimalist and decentralized organizational structure.
* A flexible approach to theology whereby individual differences in belief and morality are accepted within reason.
* A holistic view of the role of the church in society. This can mean anything from greater emphasis on fellowship in the structure of the group to a higher degree of emphasis on social action, community building or Christian outreach.
* A desire to reanalyze the Bible against the context with the goal of revealing a multiplicity of valid perspectives rather than a single valid interpretation
* A continual re-examination of theology.
* A high value placed on creating communities built out of the creativity of those who are a part of each local body.
In common with the House church movement, the Emerging Church is challenging traditional notions of how the Church should be organized. [edit]
Theological Developments [edit]
Ecclesiology
Because of the decentralized nature of the Emerging Church, as with many areas of doctrine, there is not a mutually agreed upon doctrine of ecclesiology -- a theology of the church, its role, nature, origin, and leadership. The emerging church claims its role to be continuing the mission of Christ, but there does not appear to be a unified stance on what role the church as a body plays in that mission.
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Jun 9, 2005 08:47 from Giraffe
Let's see. Decentralized. Minimalist structure. Continual re-examination of theology. A high value placed on creating community. Flexible approach to theology. Creative approaches to worship and spiritual reflection. Sounds like Quakerism to me - only it "emerged" about 300 years ago. :)
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Jun 9, 2005 10:21 from Vanity
Also check out www.emergingchurch.info
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Jun 9, 2005 10:43 from Tomte
I've done a tad of reading on the web since taking the quiz yesterday, and it seems like the emerging church conversation is coming from within evangelicalism.
Anyone know of anyone in mainline Christianity talking like this? In Marcus Borg's latest book he seems to be trying to place his views within the emerging church paradigm, but for the most part this seems to be a conversation within evangelicalism.
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Jun 9, 2005 11:04 from Drummeractorcomic
Giraffe, from your desciption, it saound almost like "We want lots of people, we will change what we say we believe as we need to in order to bring in more people. Right now, we believe what most liberals want."
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Jun 9, 2005 11:08 from Faunus
What do you mean by "liberals" in that context, Drummeractorcomic?
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Jun 9, 2005 11:07 from Giraffe
Sorry, not following your train of thought there, Drummer. Who is changing their beliefs to bring in more people?
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Jun 9, 2005 11:09 from PsychoSy
From *your* description, DAC, it sounds like the polar opposite of Roman Catholicism. ;)
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Jun 9, 2005 11:14 from Drummeractorcomic
I should have put "liberals" in quotes, and yes i meant it as the exact opposite of highly structured, heirarchal, dogmatic religions. Seems like they are trying get all the people who are rebelling against the "conservatives" that we were all complaining about in here a couple days ago. almost "we aren't going to tell you what to believe, we 'reexamine' our beliefs to fit oublic opinion. We focus more on building a community of believers and meeting their desire."
note that I am not saying this is neccessarily a BAD thing...
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Jun 9, 2005 11:20 from Vanity
Where does this "oublic opinion" come from? What oublic, and who measures its opinion (assuming that it has only one)?
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Jun 9, 2005 11:22 from Faunus
I believe Dr. Seuss wrote about it, though he spelled it "Oobleck."
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Jun 9, 2005 11:23 from Giraffe
Public opinion supports the "war on terror," the "war on drugs" and thinks that gay marriage is ickey. So, which "liberal" churches are honing their theology to fit public opinion?
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Jun 9, 2005 13:56 from Pluck Duck
Well southern baptists, of course!
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Jun 9, 2005 13:59 from Giraffe
Oh, *those* liberal churches!
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Jun 9, 2005 14:03 from Pluck Duck
You scored as Emergent/Postmodern. You are Emergent/Postmodern in your theology. You feel alienated from older forms of church, you don't think they connect to modern culture very well. No one knows the whole truth about God, and we have much to learn from each other, and so learning takes place in dialogue. Evangelism should take place in relationships rather than through crusades and altar-calls. People are interested in spirituality and want to ask questions, so the church should help them to do this.
Emergent/Postmodern 79%
Evangelical Holiness/Wesleyan 71%
Neo orthodox 68%
Classical Liberal 64%
Reformed Evangelical 64%
Charismatic/Pentecostal 57%
Fundamentalist 50%
Modern Liberal 29%
Roman Catholic 21%
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Jun 9, 2005 14:05 from Pluck Duck
Whats even funnier about that is that I always suspected Tomte and I were close in our views...but oy!
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Jun 9, 2005 15:34 from Hooligan
Tomte:
I know there is a vigorous discussion of the emerging church movement at Seabury Western and Church Divinity School of the Pacific, both liberal ECUSA seminaries. I don't know whether it's just a fad interest or whether it's actually going somewhere. (The only time it was mentioned at Nashotah House was privately, to me, by sympathetic instructors who thought it was my implicit church model and that I should learn from it -- otherwise it was thought to be insufficiently authority-driven to be a viable ecclesiology for Anglicans :)
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Jun 9, 2005 15:49 from Hooligan
Does anyone here actually have experience with an emerging church or a house church or something of that nature? It doesn't seem to be all that common in my part of the country. I'd like to hear more.
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Jun 9, 2005 16:41 from Gespalder
Since you are all sharing
You scored as Evangelical Holiness/Wesleyan.
You are an evangelical in the Wesleyan tradition. You believe that God's grace enables you to choose to believe in him, even though you yourself are totally depraved. The gift of the Holy Spirit gives you assurance of your salvation, and he also enables you to live the life of obedience to which God has called us. You are influenced heavly by John Wesley and the Methodists.
Evangelical Holiness/Wesleyan 71%
Emergent/Postmodern 61%
Neo orthodox 57%
Classical Liberal 54%
Roman Catholic 54%
Modern Liberal 50%
Charismatic/Pentecostal 46%
Reformed Evangelical 39%
Fundamentalist 25%
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Jun 10, 2005 08:32 from Moab
I had to try. Did anyone else score "classical liberal high?"
You scored as Classical Liberal.
You are a classical liberal. You are sceptical about much of the historicity of the Bible, and the most important thing Jesus has done is to set us a good moral example that we are to follow. Doctrines like the trinity and the incarnation are speculative and not really important, and in the face of science and philosophy the surest way we can be certain about God is by our inner awareness of him. Discipleship is expressed by good moral behaviour, but inward religious feeling is most important.
Classical Liberal 79%
Modern Liberal 68%
Emergent/Postmodern 54%
Roman Catholic 54%
Charismatic/Pentecostal 50%
Neo orthodox 46%
Evangelical Holiness/Wesleyan 43%
Reformed Evangelical 14%
Fundamentalist 0%
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Jun 10, 2005 08:31 from Tomte
I don't have any direct experience with emerging churches, but when I think emerging church, I usually think Brian MacClaren (sp?).
http://www.jenlemen.com is a blog written by a parishoner in McClaren's megachurch. She talks about emergent Christianity a lot, seems to get a lot of comments from other emergent blogs.
It seems like a lot of people on here with rather diverging views ended up scoring as postmodern/emerging on the quiz. This makes me think that, like DesCartes said, the quiz is a promotional tool, or else that like the charismatic movement was in the 70s, its an outlook that can exist in many different denominations.
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Jun 10, 2005 08:37 from Festus Mahoney
Brian spells his name McLaren. I've read some of his stuff and have heard a very few of his talks. He's probably best known for the books "A New Kind of Christian" and, more recently, "A Generous Orthodoxy"; I've not read those, but found "More Ready than You Realize" and "Reinventing Your Church" thought-provoking and occasionally compelling.
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Jun 10, 2005 08:39 from Tomte
Moab> thanks for posting, I was wondering what the difference was between "modern liberal" and "classical liberal." One of the drawbacks of the quiz is that there seems to be no way to get a list of all the different types descriptions.
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Jun 10, 2005 09:50 from Band Girl
Two brief things related to the emerging church discussion...
1. Brian McLaren seems to be the latest author my supervisor and other pastors are really into recommending...primarily for A Generous Orthodoxy. (This is in a mainline church...)
2. When I think emerging church in terms of an actual congregation, I think of the community at www.apostleschurch.org as an example.
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